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GiB WaKeR
ZombieMauler

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: :.::...:.:..:...::..:::.:..::
Posts: 451

Cool

Ok, I'll cut to the chase...

I have this inclination to POSSIBLY make a series of continents for RPG (since I feel the size of the land for one map is just not enough to make a really, really great RPG map), so IF someone was to do a system like that, is it possible, and more over, would you be willing to build in a system in which a different server hosts a different continent, and to switch between them you have to hop on a boat and then it will automatically reconnect you to the new server at the docks of that continent (or something to that effect).

I'm not saying definetly if I would do this or not, BUT I wanted to keep my options open with that, since I think that could REALLY help expand the world, while keeping the server stability and such pretty evenly balanced.

I.e: Theres 30 people on each continent, and your friend is on continent A and your on continent B, so since this would be one "world" you could easily travel between the two servers (continents) and experience an expanded world of more houses, different kings, more quests, new dungeons, and also with the continent feature you would be able to expand...

Anyways, is it possible to make a system to that extent?


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GiB WaKeR is offline Old Post 04-21-2001 04:20 AM
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GiB WaKeR
ZombieMauler

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: :.::...:.:..:...::..:::.:..::
Posts: 451

Cool

For expansions, you could do the old EverQuest way and be like:

"Oh my! The -insert player race- has made -type of ship B- that can travel across -ocean C- and they've found a new continent, called -insert continent name-!

The -insert boat name- should be ready to ride to the new lands of -insert continent name- soon, but be warned, there are many foreign races not yet known to us. Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah."

And it might be a good excuse to add in new races to the mod even...

Just some ideas, it all counts on if this shin-dig would work or not, and for once I'm honestly stumpted on if the engine could handle something like that.

Need your input JI...


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GiB WaKeR is offline Old Post 04-21-2001 04:28 AM
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Angel Kill
OrcRavager

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Next Door
Posts: 269

It is, i was thinking of using a lot of client connection commands and possibly a VB program to help....just program it to send commands to the program running on your computer, and the program would make you connect to different servers...

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Angel Kill is offline Old Post 04-21-2001 04:30 AM
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GiB WaKeR
ZombieMauler

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: :.::...:.:..:...::..:::.:..::
Posts: 451

Cool

Awesome, so what we'd need to do is set up a trigger in the middle of the ocean, that when passed through executes a script which in turn executes your program...

(In the middle of the ocean for the purpose of riding the boat into it, and then spawning on the docks of the new continent)


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GiB WaKeR is offline Old Post 04-21-2001 06:12 AM
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Vectrex
Quest Master

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Basement
Posts: 659

There is the problem of local admin corruption, but i have an idea. When you host a server, you have 2 options- Start your own network, or join an existing network.
When you join a network, then it gets all the character info and admin passwords from that network's master server. So basically you dont get admin but you get instant popularity. This way, joe shmoe can start a little 6 person temp server, and it will be just as good as a huge dedicated one.
But wont server owners want to do admin stuff? Yes, and here's my solution for that: Each server sets local admin passwords, and the server owner gives the passwords out as they see fit. Whenever an admin uses a command, it uses "admin cash" from that server's account. The amount of admin cash a server has is stored on the network master server. The server could get admin cash in various ways, like staying up for x days, or having x many people play on it, or having x monsters killed by players on it. This would prevent joe shmoe from starting a temp server and giving himself godlike powers.

Do you follow all that? I think its a pretty cool idea.


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Vectrex is offline Old Post 04-21-2001 08:59 PM
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DeathMerchant
UberSloth

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 4229

How about this, there are multiple "worlds" between which chars are not automatically transferred, etc.

Within each world, there are multiple "continents". Each continent = 1 server.

To start a world, a server owner can select to run the main map, thereby being the central server for the world.

After a world has been created, another would-be server op would request a link of one of the map sides to his server, which would presumably have a custom map. All char files are stored/saved to on the master server.

It would be a pain in the neck to set up, but once it's up, it would be awesome for the players, as well as easy to maintain.

Also, admins are global, for the entire world...


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DeathMerchant is offline Old Post 04-21-2001 09:22 PM
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Mir
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I think the easiest way to deal with admin problems, is simply make it so server owners only have level 1 admin.
and only people selected by the 'world master' get anything higher than that.

All admin commands would have to go through the master server to verify passwords and junk.

I realize a lot of people wont like this, "Blah blah blah I'm hosting a ****ing server for you guys and all I get is level 1 admin! whine cry boo-****ing-hoo" but really, thats all you need.

if you prove that you're trustworthy, I'm sure you'll get more.

I'd love to host a small continent on my linux machine for you all, but it would have to be a small continent, etc, because I've got a pretty weak linux machine.
I could never host a complete server.

Also, each continent could have 'gates' to other continents... this way you can limit the amount of players in each continent at a time, incase of slower servers, etc... too many people, the gate just doesn't teleport you "The magic if the gate has been depleted, you must wait until it has regenerated"


I like the crossing oceans idea... the only problem is that if you have everyone flooding the same server... it can cause problems.

I dont know if this multi-server type dealy is very likely.. as far as I can tell JI didn't really want to go this way... but I do have to admit it would make for a really cool massive world you could play in.

The master server could also NOT host any of the map stuff, and just control admin junk and playerfile junk.

the nice part about this, is that you load up the master server with everything you can, and this reduces the amount of processing each 'continent' has to do, thereby maing it so you can have that many more people in each continent at once.

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Vectrex
Quest Master

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Basement
Posts: 659

Deathmerchant. thats almost exactly what i suggested.

Mir, the multi server thingy wouldnt have to be in-game. In fact it would be very difficult to make it ingame because the number of servers is constantly changing. The idea is just to have common character files so when your favorite server is down, its not the end of the world.

The problem is that it'll be hard to find people trustworthy enough to be universal admins. With my approach, the server owner has to pick people he trusts not to screw up and blow all the "admin cash" for his server. With only universal admins, JI has to pick people to not **** up the entire world. See the problem?


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Vectrex is offline Old Post 04-21-2001 11:41 PM
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GiB WaKeR
ZombieMauler

Registered: Apr 2001
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Cool

Actually, I was thinking of 2 possible solutions...

1) The 2 servers are in the same location to begin with, and hopefully on a LAN. Information could be stored on one server and the other can access it and save to it as it sees fit.

2) The 2 servers are on the same machine. My thought is to possiblely allow dynamically changing the ammount of players allowed per server. Say you only want 30 people max, so if Server A has 20, Server B is limited to 10. Essentially, this sytem would work since once your on the server and you switch to the other, its now 19/11, so you should always be able to get between continents.

Problem with that solution is that it would be essentially running 2 servers on 1 machine, which would mean it would have to be a pretty damn beefy server to do double the work of a single server. Also, when a new continent is annexed... you'd have to most likely get another machine to urn that one.
---------------
My first choice would be 1, since theres no chance of corruption (unless the owner/s are corrupted, but then why would they be donating 2 of his/her rigs to just screw with people?)...

If theres a whole "network" of servers, now that could get us into some ****. Its one thing to have one bad egg, but you greatly increase the chances of that bad stuff to happen when you spread the network across many (unreliable) places.


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GiB WaKeR is offline Old Post 04-22-2001 01:09 AM
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DeathMerchant
UberSloth

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 4229

What would be the point of linking two servers run on 1 machine? It would me more efficient to simply run 1 big server on that machine.

I'm thinking networks of 5-6 servers here....Should be able to have 100+ people per world, easy. Perhaps even 200+

As far as admins go, yeah, keep it tight, server owners get lev 1 only. Lev1 can't screw up the entire world too badly...and a small dedicated server to run the playerfiles, linking data, and admin stuff would be great.

I've got a hot comp that could probably run a continent this fall when I get it connected to a T1 line.

Keep in mind that computers will keep getting better, so we'll be able to keep expanding these worlds.


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Gear:twin f14 courier spacecrafts, everything you could possibly want, except badges. Will pay 1.5 mil for exp badge.

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Mystic Demon RPG, level 4 Admin.


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DeathMerchant is offline Old Post 04-22-2001 01:13 AM
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GoldenFlight
Mother Lode

Registered: Mar 2001
Location:
Posts: 2480

'scuse me for being stupid, unless I missed it somewhere,

Is this the same concept we are talking about having a master server that stores all the characters in one spot for use across multiple servers?


Except that in this case, the servers are not redundant worlds, but pieces of one larger one?

So if the master server goes down the entire world crashes (and all characters)?


As far as admins go... well, Dynamix has the master server. Folks register there. People who want to play in leagues register (like OGL) and agree to abide by the rules or get kicked out of the league..

Admins can register. If abuses are reported, they can be "kicked out" of "league" or reduced to player status only. Players that don't abide by rules are flagged as only allowed on "nether region" servers or banned, etc.
("criminal" status, you cannot travel....)

Yes, it means ONE person has to monitor the "league" ...but it is formalized, there is a contract, and a PROCESS for reporting problems and a PROCESS for resolution.

Is that model worth using or am I being too simplistic?

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GoldenFlight is offline Old Post 04-22-2001 02:43 AM
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GiB WaKeR
ZombieMauler

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: :.::...:.:..:...::..:::.:..::
Posts: 451

Cool

The best way to do it is have all the continents in one place.

Like, a home-network type thing... But the problem would be that the badnwith wouldn't be able to handle the optimum ammount of people.

SO: The best alternative seems like what Goldy said. Have a network and a league by which the admins have to follow. If a player says they violated it by doing something and can prove it (or has other reliable witnesses) then the admin should be stripped ASAP and possibly even banned from play if the offense was severe.

All of the player files should be stored on a terribly reliable server that is up at least 360 out of the 365 days a year.

With this in place, the possibilities are endless. 300+ player worlds. Different continents. New expansions for a reason (new races, dungeons, etc)...

If you'd be looking for one reason to buy RPG retail, you might have a good chance of seeing this as a top choice. A massive world that can hold an unprecidented ammount (even though, its technically many servers).

Heck, in the long run, there might evolve trading lines. Where only certain materials can be found on 1 continent, so players sometimes bring it back to other continents for improved profit.

Boy I hope JI doesn't turn this one down... There might be a few reasons on why not to, but the rewards are far, far greater.


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GiB WaKeR is offline Old Post 04-22-2001 06:26 AM
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~SadFriend~
Emerald Archer

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Ji & PoG's RPG
Posts: 615

Hrmm...

How about having only the master server have the admin passwords? Wouldn't it be a lot easier and less complicated?

Master Server starts up a central server. The master server makes all of the admin passwords.

Then, when other servers join on, they get no access to the admin password or anything like that whatsoever.

The central server owner, if he saw it fit, could give admin out to the connected server owners.

It makes sense, right? Then just make rpgserv.exe Have the option of joining or making a world.

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~SadFriend~ is offline Old Post 04-22-2001 06:54 AM
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Galadriel
Elven Queen

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Lothlorien
Posts: 724

then there would be many worlds, and not many linked servers

just have it so if you activate admin/have stats bolstered by admin, your char doesnt get transfered, instead it only saves on that one server (so you join the other servers your back where you last where, un-admin enhanced)

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Galadriel is offline Old Post 04-22-2001 07:03 AM
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JeremyIrons
Tribes RPG Creator

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Posts: 615

If you attended the interview I did for Tribescenter, you would know that I plan on doing adding the functionality for this, but I didn't plan on doing that right away.

Also, there are all kinds of problems with controlled admin powers. Any admin can figure out how to give him/herself admin powers thru the console, so that just doesn't work.

This means that server OWNERS would get maximum admin access as in TRPG1, and would allocate admin powers to trusted players as in TRPG1. However, to be part of the server farm, the server owner would have to sign up somehow and get approval (a lengthy process I suppose, involving server stress tests and an IRC interview with the owner and admins). Once this account is created and info is stored (IP, continent info, max players etc) on the master server, then their world becomes available to others part of the same network. If this server gains a bad reputation somehow, the account simply needs to be deleted and their server is disconnected from the network.

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JeremyIrons is offline Old Post 04-22-2001 07:45 AM
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GiB WaKeR
ZombieMauler

Registered: Apr 2001
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Posts: 451

Cool

Guess I didn't...


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GiB WaKeR is offline Old Post 04-22-2001 04:30 PM
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Aleman
OgreDreadnought

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Houston TX
Posts: 399

Each continent would be a different map, and would be a giant island - each continent would have a large port city, which could offer transport for a fee to other continents. That could be cool.

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Aleman is offline Old Post 04-22-2001 04:42 PM
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DeathMerchant
UberSloth

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 4229

Either Magical teleportations gates, Boat type gates, or an invisible teleporter(s) that makes it look as though you are just walking to the other continent. (Very Useful in tunnels, etc.


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Only 8027000 exp till remort 100!
Gear:twin f14 courier spacecrafts, everything you could possibly want, except badges. Will pay 1.5 mil for exp badge.

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Mystic Demon RPG, level 4 Admin.


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DeathMerchant is offline Old Post 04-22-2001 05:07 PM
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GiB WaKeR
ZombieMauler

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: :.::...:.:..:...::..:::.:..::
Posts: 451

Cool

Aleman:
You got it!

DeathMerchant:
That tunnel idea is pretty good... I was only thinking of boats up to now, but that might be good for a variation, Instead of the old "hop on a boat and wait a bit, then reconnect to a different server".

Maybe for a really tough continent, have it only accesible through a dungeon on the first continent and then a maze to find the right passage.

Also, you could have a much higher fee for harder continents, so newbies don't end up just strolling into one.


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GiB WaKeR is offline Old Post 04-22-2001 05:18 PM
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DeathMerchant
UberSloth

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 4229

A fee to take the boat...I like it. This would keep newbies from getting hopelessly lost. As for respawning, as the world gets larger, a Bind spell would be very useful.

Some continents would be harder than others, but all should be at least accessible by low lev players if they can transport enough cash to the gate. Let 'em die..


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TRPG:
Binkers and Newbies, remort 19, level 74 Guardian.
Only 8027000 exp till remort 100!
Gear:twin f14 courier spacecrafts, everything you could possibly want, except badges. Will pay 1.5 mil for exp badge.

Middle Earth, level 5 Admin.

Mystic Demon RPG, level 4 Admin.


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DeathMerchant is offline Old Post 04-22-2001 05:50 PM
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~SadFriend~
Emerald Archer

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Ji & PoG's RPG
Posts: 615

quote:
Originally posted by JeremyIrons
If you attended the interview I did for Tribescenter, you would know that I plan on doing adding the functionality for this, but I didn't plan on doing that right away.



For those who didn't attend, the complete interview dialouge is here.

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GiB WaKeR
ZombieMauler

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: :.::...:.:..:...::..:::.:..::
Posts: 451

Cool

"all should be at least accessible by low lev players if they can transport enough cash to the gate. Let 'em die.."

LMAO, I agree =P

The first few will probably be just regular map stuff, but once we start to get a good base for the world, the harder crap can be added in (especially to keep the higher level people on their toes).

I.E: Making a whole continent to be an extremely hostile, volitile, and lava-filled place. Where the only safe place is the dock and the small village surrounding it, and then the rest of it is harsh lava and bad-ass monsters/dungeons ready to KICK YO' AZZ!


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GiB WaKeR is offline Old Post 04-22-2001 08:57 PM
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JeremyIrons
Tribes RPG Creator

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Posts: 615

I hope you realize that the terrain repeats just like in T1 (except that it repeats forever)

I think I can get the heightfield to increase past 256x256, perhaps 1024x1024, so the continent would be on only ONE repetition, and the others would be blocked off (or they would link to another server). 1024 would be PLENTY, as T1 uses a 3x3 repetition and that was plenty. 1024 would mean a 4x4 repetition, and if that were a continent, it would be plenty big.

I'm really starting to consider this whole idea. Also, travelling to other continents (servers) would be done by 1) crossing borders using whatever means you have (boat, swim etc) or 2) travel by magic gates.

I might end up blocking borders and having ONLY magic gates

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JeremyIrons is offline Old Post 04-22-2001 09:07 PM
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GiB WaKeR
ZombieMauler

Registered: Apr 2001
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Cool

In theory (I'm looking WAY down the road)...

If we wanted to somehow open a portal to a higher plane, or realm... we could have that one server have different physics than the others to giveit a unique feel to it.

Maybe on an ice continent, fire spells do more damage?

That type of stuff...


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GiB WaKeR is offline Old Post 04-22-2001 09:12 PM
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GiB WaKeR
ZombieMauler

Registered: Apr 2001
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Cool

Isn't Tribes 2 infinite?

So you would need water ALWAYS to help divide continents, or you'd be walking a long long time...


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GiB WaKeR is offline Old Post 04-22-2001 09:21 PM
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DeathMerchant
UberSloth

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 4229

Yeah, the maps repeat infinitely. I discovered this by trying to see how far I could drive a gravcycle before I fell. A very long time later, I gave up and crashed.

Yes, for the most part the borders would need to be blocked...Some sort of a wall or sheer rock cliff might be fitting. (remember WW's)

If someone goes past the plane marking the edge of the continent, it would have to auto-load the next continent. However, I favor making it accessible mainly by small, distinct portals. It would minimize confusion.

How many servers should we allow in a world? I favor 4, 5, 9 or 10. 4 or 9 as they are both squares...5 or 10 as they are both squares plus 1 extra for an underground or sky empire. What do you think would be doable?


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TRPG:
Binkers and Newbies, remort 19, level 74 Guardian.
Only 8027000 exp till remort 100!
Gear:twin f14 courier spacecrafts, everything you could possibly want, except badges. Will pay 1.5 mil for exp badge.

Middle Earth, level 5 Admin.

Mystic Demon RPG, level 4 Admin.


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DeathMerchant is offline Old Post 04-22-2001 11:29 PM
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GiB WaKeR
ZombieMauler

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: :.::...:.:..:...::..:::.:..::
Posts: 451

Cool

Well, continents are always surrounded by water (obviously). So I think unless your doing an unusual plane-type thing there should always be water around that continent (and then a wall to keep you going to the next island).

If JI can manage to get the heightfield up to 1024x1024, that will give you about 4 times the land mass to work with than whats currently available, which should be PLENTY for a rather huge island.

So the idea of having just pure "blocks" doesn't sound good for a continent. But lets say you found a teleport to a hidden valley of some sort that makes sense to have it surrounded by a huge stone wall type thing.

It'll probably just be good to start with JI's base continent so you can see how he does everything, then expand from there...


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GiB WaKeR is offline Old Post 04-23-2001 12:02 AM
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JeremyIrons
Tribes RPG Creator

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Posts: 615

I've been trying to increase the heightfield past 256x256 and I don't think it will be possible using the T2 scripting language. I believe it's an internal thing, something I'd be able to change using V12.

However, I designed a continent on one repetition (very cool terrain) and I think it will be big enough for starters. The first map will be on this continent, and there's no reason for people to travel really far to get somewhere just yet. The multiple server thing will take care of that.

Think about this... each server's economy will fluctuate differently, and some items in some servers might be worth twice as much as others... so I'm probably going to nerf mining to the point where it's only for fun (if I can do the mining system I plan, you won't even care what you mine cause it'll be so fun) and you'd have to make money by knowing which merchants give you top dollar for specific items (I'm sure some kind of skill would let you do something like #value Worn Longsword Of Might, JI & PoG's RPG, and it would tell you something like "Doesn't seem like a good idea" or "Seems like a good idea", or "You have no idea". So you'd have these elite players who would charge newbs to give them hints on which servers would be best to sell their stuff

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JeremyIrons is offline Old Post 04-24-2001 05:06 PM
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SilverHorse
Banned

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Butler PA
Posts: 3308

Thats sounds like a great idea.

My Thing:

Say you are on continent (server) B.
You decide to go to continent A to sell your sword.
You are on continent A, when the server running it goes down.

What would happen? would you be automatically sent back to Continent B?


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SilverHorse is offline Old Post 04-24-2001 05:57 PM
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JeremyIrons
Tribes RPG Creator

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Posts: 615

You'd get disconnected and you'd have to pick a server again

You could potentially pick to play in any continent you want. Disconnecting and reconnecting to another server could be considered an "extended magical teleportation mechanism" or something

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JeremyIrons is offline Old Post 04-24-2001 06:36 PM
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